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cell usage rant/thoughts
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gords1001 Offline
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Post: #1
cell usage rant/thoughts
Right.

I say rant, had I written this this afternoon it would have been a full on hulk smash rage.

Fortunately its had to wait so hopefully this will be somewhat constructive.

Its not unknown that myself, both johnnymac and spasmod, Don,  pulsar and 18sixfifty, along with more than a few of our members came to vaping from the world of torches. We are all flashaholics, to give us our accepted community title.

In torch world, the absolute unassailable law is battery safety. EVERY new member of the forum is directed towards a sticky post as soon as they start considering a li ion powered torch.  There are countless threads on what to avoid, what chargers/cells to be looking at for various applications, hkj posts regular tests that would not be out of place in a scientific journal. Battery safety is paramount.

I needed to get that bit out of the way, call it setting the scene.

In vaping land li ion is practically the only power source considered, there are a few li po powered captive battery devices, and a few li po box mods coming to market. But by and large li ion reigns supreme.

This was discussed a lot - bare li ion cells were never intended to be consumer products, they were supposed to be supplied to manufacturers who would encase them in a pack and supply a purpose built charger, along with short circuit/over voltage/under voltage/over current protection. It was considered a scary prospect that these cells might get into the hands of users who wouldn't respect the various rules necessary for the safe use of these cells.

Along comes vaping.


So whats this got to do with a rant?

Well, in the past week I've seen posts where a person ran a cell below safe voltage on a mech and blamed the cell for not being safe. Two users subjecting cells to resistances of .03 ohm and .018 ohm, and arguing that they shouldn't be pulled up on such practices. I also saw pbsardo's review of the sx mini that has some excellent advice on battery safety and demonstrates voltage drop under load. And I saw another reviewer who doesn't understand that if cells are connected up in parallel they will self equalise their voltage. You must still use matched pairs - same age/same type/same usage cycles but balancing is not necessary for parallel configuration.


Whats the rant about? Well basically, user ignorance, and vender/industry ignorance. One of the super sub ohm guys claimed to be a vender and that made his post ok. Its not ok.

We know that there is currently a $2.7million study being carried out to observe vapers habits on social media. We know we are under the spotlight, we know that large groups of influential, spiteful zealots are looking to shut us down.


If you're going to build super low builds, either have a suitable power supply for them or include the detail thst these are not builds for anyone to try, explain what is necessary to use those builds.

PROVE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT IS NECESSARY TO KNOW TO DO STUPID STUFF LIKE THAT.

And if you really understand what is going to happen when you do stuff like this, the chances are you will find an alternative safer way to achieve what you are aiming for, that being the case, do take the time to make a post about it and explain your reasoning. Then hopefully its out there.

I welcome anyones thoughts, thanks for reading.
04-02-2015 08:50 PM
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Post: #2
RE: cell usage rant/thoughts [under construction. no peaking :p ]
But unlike with torches (flashlights) we are using far heavier current draws, and for longer.

Which stresses the cells more. Which can have bad consequences.

But shouldn't.

Lipo mods are the future.

TVF tested battery info to be found here

http://www.preventsuicideapp.com

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04-02-2015 09:01 PM
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Michael (02-04-2015)
gords1001 Offline
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RE: cell usage rant/thoughts
Exactly Don. People really dont understand what they are asking of their cells. Or the consequences of asking too much.
04-02-2015 10:27 PM
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Robjenko Offline
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Post: #4
RE: cell usage rant/thoughts
You lost me at the word..  Right. Lol

No seriously.  
I don’t pretend to know about batteries, before joining this forum all I  knew was that if a battery is getting warm there is something wrong. Since joining I have been educated thanks to Dons battery test data and reading about ohms law (I don’t fully understand it) but I know more now than I did before. Smile

Vaping Saves Lives. To vape is to advocate..
04-02-2015 10:52 PM
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JohnnyMac (04-11-2015)
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Post: #5
RE: cell usage rant/thoughts
I must say I'm happy that you made this post/rant. There was a guy on here recently who had joined the forum two months ago totally new to vaping, several people (including myself) warned him of the dangers of pushing cells too hard... And then he shows up two months later boasting about his .09 ohm build in his box mod which he modded to remove the .2 ohm limit. That kind of thing... Sheesh. Well, at least he can't say we didn't warn him. I think it will be a much happier world once vaping moves into the LiPo realm, as you've suggested. 
04-02-2015 11:23 PM
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gords1001 Offline
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RE: cell usage rant/thoughts
Lol glad to have helped. Any questions though, just ask, vaping cells are safe if used correctly but its easy to not do that through ignorance, as a rule of thumb, keep coils above .2ohm unless using ni200 wire on a dna40 device. Keep cell voltage above 3v and you should be fine Smile

But obviously make sure you know your cells maximum continuous discharge current and stay UNDER that Smile

Facebook is full of users who really shouldn't be doing what they are doing. At some point someone else is going to get seriously injured through ignorance of cell safety.
(This post was last modified: 04-02-2015 11:26 PM by gords1001.)
04-02-2015 11:23 PM
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RE: cell usage rant/thoughts
(04-02-2015 11:23 PM)gords1001 Wrote:  Lol glad to have helped. Any questions though, just ask,  vaping cells are safe if used correctly but its easy to not do that through ignorance, as a rule of thumb,  keep coils above .2ohm unless using ni200 wire on a dna40 device. Keep cell voltage above 3v and you should be fine Smile

But obviously make sure you know your cells maximum continuous discharge current and stay UNDER that Smile

Facebook is full of users who really shouldn't be doing what they are doing.  At some point someone else is going to get seriously injured through ignorance of cell safety.
And When that serious injury happens (god forbid it does) The anti vaping lobby will jump all over it Diablo

Vaping Saves Lives. To vape is to advocate..
04-02-2015 11:52 PM
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Michael (02-05-2015)
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Post: #8
RE: cell usage rant/thoughts
That's one thing I can't stand about this kind of stupidity. I mean sure it's a tragedy if someone hurts themselves by being stupid and vaping incorrectly, but if it just hurt them it wouldn't be so bad since they made the stupid decision. But if and when it does happen, it will likely have a profound impact on the vaping community as a whole. As Rob said, anti-vaping lobbyists would love to see someone get hurt by vaping incorrectly, so they can jump all over it and convince people that ecigs are killers. 
It brings to mind the 2nd Amendment debates here in the USA. There are a lot of anti-gun lobbyists, and every now and then someone will get hurt or killed due to improper gun safety and suddenly everyone wants to ban guns. And then there's Tennessee and Alabama, trying to shoot the gun control lobbyists. And then there's the concerned citizens in between. (I live in TN, by the way, so you know where I stand)
Fortunately the gun control acts haven't made it very far, and we still have the right to keep and bear arms. I sincerely hope that vaping ends up the same way: people may bicker about it all day long, but so far the 2nd Amendment isn't going anywhere.

(sorry about getting a little off-track there, but it seemed a fitting analogy for the point I wanted to convey)
05-02-2015 04:00 AM
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Post: #9
RE: cell usage rant/thoughts
(04-02-2015 08:50 PM)gords1001 Wrote:  Right.

I say rant, had I written this this afternoon it would have been a full on hulk smash rage.

Fortunately its had to wait so hopefully this will be somewhat constructive.

Its not unknown that myself, both johnnymac and spasmod, Don,  pulsar and 18sixfifty, along with more than a few of our members came to vaping from the world of torches. We are all flashaholics, to give us our accepted community title.

In torch world, the absolute unassailable law is battery safety. EVERY new member of the forum is directed towards a sticky post as soon as they start considering a li ion powered torch.  There are countless threads on what to avoid, what chargers/cells to be looking at for various applications, hkj posts regular tests that would not be out of place in a scientific journal. Battery safety is paramount.

I needed to get that bit out of the way, call it setting the scene.

In vaping land li ion is practically the only power source considered, there are a few li po powered captive battery devices, and a few li po box mods coming to market. But by and large li ion reigns supreme.

This was discussed a lot - bare  li ion cells were never intended to be consumer products, they were supposed to be supplied to manufacturers who would encase them in a pack and supply a purpose built charger, along with short circuit/over voltage/under voltage/over current protection. It was considered a scary prospect that these cells might get into the hands of users who wouldn't respect the various rules necessary for the safe use of these cells.

Along comes vaping.


So whats this got to do with a rant?

Well, in the past week I've seen posts where a person ran a cell below safe voltage on a mech and blamed the cell for not being safe. Two users subjecting cells to resistances of .03 ohm and .018 ohm, and arguing that they shouldn't be pulled up on such practices. I also saw pbsardo's review of the sx mini that has some excellent advice on battery safety and demonstrates voltage drop under load. And I saw another reviewer who doesn't understand that if cells are connected up in parallel they will self equalise their voltage.  You must still use matched pairs - same age/same type/same usage cycles but balancing is not necessary for parallel configuration.


Whats the rant about? Well basically,  user ignorance, and vender/industry ignorance.  One of the super sub ohm guys claimed to be a vender and that made his post ok. Its not ok.

We know that there is currently a $2.7million study being carried out to observe vapers habits on social media. We know we are under the spotlight, we know that large groups of influential,  spiteful zealots are looking to shut us down.


If you're going to build super low builds, either have a suitable power supply for them or include the detail thst these are not builds for anyone to try, explain what is necessary to use those builds.

PROVE THAT YOU KNOW WHAT IS NECESSARY TO KNOW TO DO STUPID STUFF LIKE THAT.  

And if you really understand what is going to happen when you do stuff like this, the chances are you will find an alternative safer way to achieve what you are aiming for, that being the case, do take the time to make a post about it and explain your reasoning. Then hopefully its out there.

I welcome anyones thoughts, thanks for reading.
I found and read this after sending you the PM  4-11-15.. This is exactly why I know I came to the right person for that info.. Smile Thanks again!

Onward.. through the Fog!
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11-04-2015 02:22 PM
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JohnnyMac (04-11-2015)
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RE: cell usage rant/thoughts
Michael - if you didn't make the gun control analogy, I was going to, LOL.

The worst thing in the world is ignorance.  

In these instances - vaping, guns, or many other things - what you end up with is the ignorant people on both sides being the ones running the show.  It's the ignorant assholes on the one side creating the problems that causes the ignorant assholes on the other side to react ignorantly to things that only ignorant people are doing in the first damn place.

And VAST MAJORITY of people that AREN'T mentally defective, bear the consequences.

Remind one liberal per day, that laws affect only the law-abiding.
12-04-2015 12:01 AM
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