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Inside Health BBC R4 9pm Jan 21st
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Don Offline
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Inside Health BBC R4 9pm Jan 21st
Apparently there is supposed to be a segment on e-digs.

But there's no mention of it on the R4 website.

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21-01-2014 08:07 PM
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Don Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Inside Health BBC R4 9pm Jan 21st
That segment obviously got cut in favour of a bit about reflux which I've heard several times before..
Sad

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21-01-2014 09:32 PM
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Spasmod Offline
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RE: Inside Health BBC R4 9pm Jan 21st
Ah yeah I forgot about that, I started watching Vttv, they had a good segment with Clive Bates making some ecig opponents squirming in their seats Big Grin
21-01-2014 09:47 PM
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Don Offline
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RE: Inside Health BBC R4 9pm Jan 21st
It got broadcast yesterday afternoon.

Downloadable from here. With transcript. Here's the bit about electric fags.
But first electronic cigarettes and the announcement by the government that it plans to make it illegal to sell them to anyone under the age of 18.  Their advertising could soon be restricted too amid fears that vaping is a gateway to smoking for younger people.  So is the government right to be concerned?
 
Well to help us find out I am joined by three leading lights in the field:  Martin McKee is Professor of Public Health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine;  Professor Gerard Hastings is from the Centre for Tobacco Control Research at the University of Stirling and Robert West is Professor of Health Psychology at University College London.
 
Robert, who is using e-cigarettes and how?
 
West
Eight five per cent of people, when they start to use them, use them as an attempt to stop smoking.  And the way it seems to us, particularly when you look at the kind of people who are using them, they look awfully like the people who would otherwise use the licensed nicotine products – nicotine patch and so on.  So that’s when they start to use them.  However, as we know, stopping smoking is very difficult so what you find is a substantial proportion – most of them relapse – and so what you end up with at any one time it is cutting down that dominates.
 
Porter
Martin McKee for you have these been a welcome addition to the market?
 
McKee
What concerns me is the way that the tobacco manufacturers have got in on the market.  They’ve suddenly realised that this is an opportunity for them and they’re really pushing them very hard, they’re taking over the small manufacturers who produced them early on and I think they’re doing that for a number of reasons.  One, they’re terribly concerned about what we call the denormalisation of smoking, the fact that smoking is no longer socially acceptable.  The tobacco industry has really done very well at promoting smoking by getting smoking into movies, for example, but by using e cigarettes they can get the images which look exactly like smoking into pop videos for kids, into movies, you saw people at the Golden Globes smoking – vaping – with the e cigarettes, that’s renormalising the imagery.  But I think the other thing is the cigalites, which are objects which look for all the world like cigarettes, it’s not that they just look a bit like cigarettes, they look exactly like cigarettes.  And when you’ve got bans on cigarette advertising you can put these things all over the place and most people looking at them from a distance will say – those are cigarettes.  So you’re circumventing the bans that have been very effective.
 
Porter
Gerard Hastings?
 
Hastings
I think first of all I would agree with Robert – the potential here for a great deal of good if we can get adult smokers to switch from tobacco to electronic cigarettes, although we’re still in the early days of working out what e cigarettes do they’re surely not as dangerous as real cigarettes, so that’s got to be a good thing.  But Martin is also right – the fact that they imitate cigarettes so closely is dangerous because imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  So we’ve got these products being used, almost like decaffeinated coffee but decaffeinated coffee only exists because there’s real coffee and real coffee is the real McCoy.  There’s a great danger that the subtext of all this activity, albeit is generating some public health gains, will involve some big steps backwards – the renormalisation of the use of nicotine on a habitual basis – that it could create enormous problems.  I just don’t think we know, so I think we’ve got to tread carefully.
 
Porter
Do we know what’s happening to overall consumption?  I mean it must be a difficult thing to work out but looking at the number of cigarettes smoked plus e cigarettes smoked, I mean are the e cigarettes additional?
 
West
Yeah we do know, I mean this is the great advantage of being able to track these things and there’s no other country in the world that has the kind of data that we’ve got.  This is where Gerard and Martin and I might part company, at least a little bit, is while I agree totally with the theoretical risk but if we look at where the evidence is at the moment what we’re seeing in the last two years since these products have come on to the market in a big way is an acceleration in the rate of smoking cessation, the rate of use of these e cigarettes among people who are non-smokers and haven’t smoked is about point five of one per cent, the rate at which people are trying to stop has gone up but the motivation rate has gone up and the success rate has gone up.  So at the moment the signs are in a positive direction.  Having said that I completely agree that this could be a false dawn and it may go the other way.
 
Porter
So it looks like people are giving up, Martin, and not many people are taking up these e cigarettes?
 
McKee
Well we do have some evidence from the United States following up children, that there are children who are moving into e cigarettes and potentially then on to real cigarettes but the numbers are small.  And remember that the industry is producing these really targeted at kids – the flavourings that are in them – bubble-gum flavour – that’s not a flavour for adults is it?  So they’re clearly being pushed at children.
 
Hastings
Bear in mind that the tobacco market is utterly dependent upon recruiting children – 88%, according to the Surgeon General’s report – 88% of smokers start in their childhood.  So you cannot run a market in this area without long term recruiting children.
 
McKee
And I think if you look at pop videos – anyone might want to look at the latest Lily Allen video where e cigarettes are very prominent, that is clearly targeted at kids.  But I think it is undoubtedly true that people are cutting back on what they’re smoking but remember that the real gains, particularly in terms of the effect on heart disease, are from giving up altogether.
 
Porter
Well that’s one concern that I have that actually what people are doing is that they’re using e cigarettes during the day, when they can’t smoke at work or they can’t smoke in the house, but it enables them to perpetuate their smoking habit, so when they go out at the weekend or at other times.  Do we have any evidence….?
 
West
Yes and that is the risk with the cutting down message generally.  What the evidence shows with licensed products – we haven’t got evidence for e cigarettes yet but we will have – but what with licensed nicotine products what the evidence shows is that people who cut down with them when you follow them up a year later you find that lo and behold they’ve actually stopped.  It somehow is a gateway to stopping.  Now we don’t know whether that will be the case with e cigarettes, time will tell, so I completely agree that the cutting down is not in itself a goal but it may be a step to quitting.
 
Hastings
The other player of course in this debate is the market and what the commercial operators, whether they be tobacco companies or small e cigarette companies will do, and the only thing we know for certain there is that they will chase the money, they will do what is most profitable not what is best for public health.
 
McKee
And if I can pick up on that I think we really need to get inside the mind of the tobacco industry here, they are now taking over many of the e cigarette manufacturers and they’re marketing them very heavily, the advertisements are everywhere, but if they really wanted to get them out to be used in large amounts they would cut the price.  But if you want to buy an e cigarette refill you’re talking about £8 a go if you buy it off the internet.  And remember there’s no tax to be paid on that.  These are being produced in China, they could be produced for 10-20p, so if they had a real strategy of increasing uptake they would be almost giving them away, they’re not doing that.  And many of us believe that what they want is just to have a few of them on the market to justify being able to plaster their advertisements all over everywhere because they’re really advertising cigarettes, they’re not actually advertising e cigarettes.
 
Porter
Well this was something that struck me – I saw a television advert and it was a flashback, took me back 30 years, of a couple of blokes sharing moments together and they ended up sharing an e cigarette together and I thought it was weird.
 
Hastings
It’s worth saying Mark that we did a study last year looking at exactly this, looking – did an audit of all the marketing that’s going on for e cigarettes and it absolutely is exactly as you say it’s a flashback to the 1960s and ‘70s when tobacco advertising was still very free and easily available, the same sorts of pictures for lifestyle claims, trendiness, coolness, sport sponsorship, celebrity endorsement, pop videos – all these things that tobacco industry in the past would have jumped on as fast as it could and did are now being used for e cigarettes.
 
West
There is one thing I’d like to say, just to extend this, and that is one of the things that we may have as an opportunity here – and I completely agree about the issue of marketing, actually I don’t think they should be allowed to be marketed – but one of the things about the denormalisation argument is really about the things that look like smoking.  Now increasingly with the second generation products and even more so with the third generation products what you’re getting is products who actually look nothing like cigarettes but they’re much more effective nicotine delivery systems.  And so there is a chance that what we’ve done is to essentially to break the ice with the idea of a nicotine product which could be attractive but isn’t smoking.  Now I agree that that’s theoretical as well but it offers an opportunity.
 
Porter
You’re talking about devices that look like stainless steel mini pipes and all sorts…
 
West
Sonic screwdriver.
 
Hastings
But this is really quite scary territory isn’t it.  If you recall for a moment the Hippocratic oath – first do no harm – and we’re jumping in with this and I think we’ve got a very odd situation in the UK now where the medicines’ regulator has said these things need regulating but actually we’re not going to do anything for three years. And I think absolutely 100% with Robert on this – the marketing of these is extremely dangerous, we need to control that.
 
Porter
You’re implying that the marketing is aimed at children with flavours and the coolness…
 
Hastings
I wouldn’t get into the – whether it’s actually aimed at them or not, whether it’s manslaughter or murder the point is that it will appeal to children.
 
Porter
Well okay, so it’s appealing to children, we know that some people are taking up de novo, children are taking this up for the first time, is there any evidence that they go on to smoke?
 
West
No we don’t know that yet and that is absolutely the $64,000 question.
 
Hastings
… that is an absence in our data set because your survey’s with adults isn’t it?
 
West
Oh yeah we start at 16 but there are other studies going on.  But it’s early days…
 
Porter
Martin McKee, you’re champing to get in there.
 
McKee
Well because in public health of course we endorse the precautionary principle and if there is a degree of uncertainty we should take precautions.  We should now be thinking about do we really want them at all.  If we are going to have them as a nicotine delivery device, first of all, there are other ways of getting nicotine in, there are aerosol sprays, there are patches, there are other ways which do not have the imagery associated with smoking.  But I too would ban advertising entirely, I would have them in plain packaging and I would ban the use of flavours.  There is no excuse for having bubble-gum, cotton candy – things like that – and I would also make sure that they’re kept away from – as happens in the US – they’re put among the sweets at the checkout.
 
Porter

Professors Martin McKee, Gerard Hastings and Robert West – thank you all very much. And moves to restrict advertising are currently out for public consultation.

TVF tested battery info to be found here

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30-01-2014 09:41 AM
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gords1001 Offline
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RE: Inside Health BBC R4 9pm Jan 21st
I will have to make my own thread to respond to this...... it will likely contain many many many terms like useless, cocksuckng and fuckweasel.....
30-01-2014 11:59 AM
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Don Offline
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RE: Inside Health BBC R4 9pm Jan 21st
Comments have been made. Not by me.

http://mattgluggles.blogspot.co.uk/2014/...h-and.html

See Clive Bates' Twitter for commentary including the delightful, "@martinmckee you talked delusional rubbish on e-cigs. But then you do no research, invent evidence and make no effort to understand users." Copies of which ought to be forwarded to the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine. Must dig around his publications and see who's been giving him money. Obviously Big Pharma as nearly all doctors swill at that trough. And the proven ineffectiveness of NRT ought to be a hint. Now off to hand a patient an electrical nicotine vapouriser to see if it works for them.

TVF tested battery info to be found here

http://www.preventsuicideapp.com

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30-01-2014 02:57 PM
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Spasmod Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Inside Health BBC R4 9pm Jan 21st
LOL, yep that entire thing was laughable

IMO it's fairly easy to sum it all up in two words...

Money Talks!
30-01-2014 03:09 PM
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