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Help with Juice mixing.
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Vapegod Offline
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Post: #1
Help with Juice mixing.
I dont know if this topic has been explained already so I apologize if it has, but I've decided I want to start making my own juice. Ive been vaping for quite a while and I understand what pg and VG are and why they're important and what each one of them do and the dangers of nicotine but I'm stuck on one part and that's making/extracting the actual flavor. I know you can just buy the flavor but where's the fun in that. Is it the same thing as a normal food extract for preparing a meal or is it something that is tweaked specifically for vaping? If anyone has any advice or links they could share on this that would be great. Also I'm more of a savory and fruity guy. I know the tobacco and mint flavors are the easiest ones to make but I'm looking for something a little more advanced. 
12-12-2015 02:13 AM
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Don Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Help with Juice mixing.
Making your own flavours from scratch would lead you to serious costs and most of a chemistry degree along the way.

I have a chemistry degree and wouldn't recommend it. Stuff that is safe to eat is not necessarily safe to inhale. Natural vanilla extract for example is certainly not safe to inhale though perfectly safe to eat.

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12-12-2015 08:29 AM
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gentlydoingit* (12-12-2015)
gentlydoingit* Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Help with Juice mixing.
What he said Tongue

I looked into making juice a long time ago and got the same answers, it's probably the main reason why I've never done it.
But heck, it's not like your going to manually squeeze the vg from a bag of spuds is it, so why not go for premixed concentrate Smile

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12-12-2015 12:18 PM
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Vapegod Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Help with Juice mixing.
I do I just wanted to try and come up with my own personal concoction for my own unique vape. 
12-12-2015 01:03 PM
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gentlydoingit* (12-12-2015)
Don Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Help with Juice mixing.
You can do that - just that you use known safe to vape flavourings.

That bit is fun!

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12-12-2015 01:59 PM
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gentlydoingit* Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Help with Juice mixing.
Fully plagiarist, thieving, down right dirty copy n paste here.. Smile all of this as far as I can tell relates to flavour concentrate, the safety of vaping the flavour is another matter.. And somthing I haven't found to copy n paste yet Tongue



"When making a flavor, the flavorist always begins by going to the scientific literature and researching what chemicals nature uses to make the desired flavor. 
He then selects from the list of flavor components found in, say, real apples, generally simplifying nature list to eliminate those chemicals that make little 
contribution to taste or are not permitted owing to toxicity. "

The 'scientific literature' lists all of the chemicals in a particular product, such as a Banana. In Europe the EFSA, European Food Safety Authority, is responsible 
for deciding which ingredients are safe for consumption. 

Another method, but far more time-consuming and expensive, is to analyse whatever you wish to recreate using Gas Chromatography, Mass Spectometry, 
and even HPLC–SPE–NMR, High Performance Liquid Chromatography–Solid Phase Extraction–Nuclear Magnetic Resonance, althought the latter is probably only
really seen in huge industries where the anaysis of molecules is critical, such as for pharmaceutical applications or creating polymers (plastics).

The Flavorist creates an inorganic compound using the same chemical building blocks. There is also Organic Synthesis, but that can take much longer to achieve the 
desired result than it would with inorganic compounds because of the complexity of the molecules and because it involves organic reactions; again, this would
more likely be used by Pharma and other high-level industries.


Firstly there are two levels of 'mixer', the Flavorist who is an expert in the field of recreating flavours and usually
a Graduate in a scientific discipline, and the Blender who uses what the Flavorist produces to create new combinations.
The Flavorist will use the exact same flavour-creating chemicals found in the original product but leaving out those that
are not necessary or are not considered safe for consumption. The blender will combine two or more flavours to create
their own new flavours. For example, Pear Drops flavour would not be made from real Pears, but from a recreated Pear flavour.
To keep you interested here's where I give away a trade secret....try mixing Pear and Banana flavours and taste what happens .

Natural and artificial flavors are defined for the consumer in the Code of Federal Regulations. A key line from this definition is the following: 
" a natural flavor is the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, 
which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or 
similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather 
than nutritional." Synthetic flavors are those that are made from components that do not meet this definition.

The question at hand, however, appears to be less a matter of legal definition than the "real" or practical difference between these two types of flavorings.

There is little substantive difference in the chemical compositions of natural and artificial flavorings. They are both made in a laboratory by a trained professional, 
a "flavorist," who blends appropriate chemicals together in the right proportions. The flavorist uses "natural" chemicals to make natural flavorings and "synthetic" 
chemicals to make synthetic flavorings. The flavorist creating synthetic flavoring must use the same chemicals in his formulation as would be used to make a natural flavoring, 
however. otherwise, the flavoring will not have the desired flavor. The distinction in flavorings--natural versus artificial--comes from the source of these identical chemicals 
and may be likened to saying that an apple sold in a gas station is artificial and one sold from a fruit stand is natural.

This issue is somewhat confusing to the average consumer in part because of other seeming parallels in the world. One can, for example, make a blue dye out of blueberry extract 
or synthetic pigments. These dyes are very different in chemical composition yet both yield a blue color. Similarly, consider one shirt made from wool and another from nylon. 
Both are shirts, but they have very different chemical compositions. This diversity of building blocks is not possible in flavorings--one makes a given flavor only by using specific chemicals. 
Thus, if a consumer purchases an apple beverage that contains an artificial flavor, she will ingest the same primary chemicals that she would take in if she had chosen a naturally flavored 
apple beverage and the same chemicals that nature provided during the apple ripening. 

When making a flavor, the flavorist always begins by going to the scientific literature and researching what chemicals nature uses to make the desired flavor. He then selects from the list of 
flavor components found in, say, real apples, generally simplifying nature list to eliminate those chemicals that make little contribution to taste or are not permitted owing to toxicity. 
(Nature has no restrictions on using toxic chemicals, whereas the flavorist does.) The flavorist then either chooses chemicals that are natural (isolated from nature as described above) or 
synthetic chemicals (made by people) to make the flavor.

So is there truly a difference between natural and artificial flavorings? Yes. Artificial flavorings are simpler in composition and potentially safer because only safety-tested components are utilized. Another difference between natural and artificial flavorings is cost. The search for "natural" sources of chemicals often requires that a manufacturer go to great lengths to obtain a given chemical. Natural coconut flavorings, for example, depend on a chemical called massoya lactone. Massoya lactone comes from the bark of the Massoya tree, which grows in Malaysia. Collecting this natural chemical kills the tree because harvesters must remove the bark and extract it to obtain the lactone. Furthermore, the process is costly. This pure natural chemical is identical to the version made in an organic chemists laboratory, yet it is much more expensive than the synthetic alternative. Consumers pay a lot for natural flavorings. But these are in fact no better in quality, nor are they safer, than their cost-effective artificial counterparts.

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12-12-2015 02:05 PM
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Vapegod (12-12-2015)
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Post: #7
RE: Help with Juice mixing.
It just highlights what Don was saying!

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12-12-2015 02:08 PM
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gentlydoingit* Offline
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RE: Help with Juice mixing.
(12-12-2015 01:59 PM)Don Wrote:  You can do that - just that you use known safe to vape flavourings.

That bit is fun!

Is there a 'safe to vape list' around?

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12-12-2015 02:09 PM
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Don Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Help with Juice mixing.
If you go to the likes of FlavorWest, Capella or any of the other majors, they will tell you.

If they won't, then find a supplier that will.

Solubarome will tell you which ones are suitable and which ones aren't.

Just as an afterthought, GC/MS machines start around half a million dollars though they may have got cheaper. Since a mass spectrometer requires an extremely hard vacuum to do anything useful, you are also spending thousands on diffusion vacuum pumps - which are not exactly cheap to run either. Gas Chromatographs are cheap enough - about the price of a new car.

Which is why you will be looking at costs of around $150-200 or more per sample analysed.

HPLC machines were invented by the guy who more or less failed to teach me theoretical chemistry. At the start of each lecture he read us a poem - I might as well have left after that as it was the last thing I had any chance of understanding in his lectures.

The rest of is was so far above my head I couldn't even see the bottom of it.

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12-12-2015 02:45 PM
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peter-k Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Help with Juice mixing.
I'd like to add a bit to the post byGentlydoingit.

A good senior flavours knows the properties of several hundred chemicals by memory, from experience.

Material which is classified as artificial is often more tested and better known than natural molecules.

You can make a perfectly well accptable strawberry flavour from 6 chemicals.If someone gives you that recipe, and you follow the instructions carefully, fine. If you try to find your own composition it may get complicated. You can learn that, there is literature. But to my opinion it is better to buy heardbases. These are the concentrated core flavour bases which need to dilute to consumable strength. That's what actually many many e-liquid vendors do.

I work in the flavour industry.
(This post was last modified: 12-12-2015 05:14 PM by peter-k.)
12-12-2015 05:11 PM
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